Thulani Mabaso – Africa 2019 Transcript
June 17, 2019
Robben Island, South Africa
Umbono Project – Mount Madonna School
Ward Mailliard: Alright, so Thulani, you want to say a little bit about your person experience that will give them kind of a sense of how you came to be who you are today?
Thulani Mabaso: Thank you very much. In my family, I’m the only son. And we grew up- I grew up in one of the most rich land, where we used to have our own cattle, our own goats, chicken. And we used to plow the fields. Having a very beautiful place for our cattle to graze. And then we used to run naked, you know, laying around, going to the river, swim- even though I’m a bad swimming, but we loved to be there, because the weather was so good. And then there was- how do you say- a land of plenty. We’d never sleep hungry because we had everything in our fridge. And suddenly, we saw big trucks, police, dogs, coming to our areas, breaking down all the place, removing our livestock. I remember my Grandma, she asked ‘where are we going?’ The only thing I remember is that they said we are trespassing. So we were forcefully removed in that lands. They took us in the land where we could not plow anything, no livestock, they kept us in the small shanti house, no toilets, we have to (can’t understand) to go to the toilet. Water- out of 500 families, we use one tap. Sometimes that tap gets dry, so we have to look around to get water. Even the school that we attend, it was a muddy school, the roof was (can’t understand), no financial. I remember I used to sit on the rock. In the class, we were about 80 children and one teacher. We have to share the textbook amongst ourselves. You know, there was a challenge where we couldn’t even have a pen to write, a pencil. So sometimes you’d break your pencil to share with your schoolmates. In the same breath, while you are busy trying to concentrate to our teacher, you’d hear the dogs barking, you’d hear the siren, the police are coming to our schools, throwing in tear gas, everybody would run around screaming, and fearing even the dogs, crying, running away, and so we found out the following day, some of our schoolmates disappeared. We don’t know where they were taken. Some of them were even arrested. And then when the weather is raining, the wind is blowing, I remember the roof of the school going away, and we have to rebuild.
I want to tell you, we had a terrible conditions in our schools. Teachers tried to help us, but the system make it very impossible. There are times, at home, I slept without food. No food, nothing. But I wake up in the morning and prepare to go to school, with a hungry stomach. Maybe at school there are some children who’ve got something like bread, or beans, who shared. And those children I remember come back, they make me so much angry that they took us out of the land of plenty, they bring us to the (can’t understand) land. How do we grow up there? Dark, no electricity, no toilets, we have to make our own toilets. Everything was just unhygienic. And that is when, in the ’76, when the conditions started to change, we decided- I decided to take arms against Apartheid.
There was nothing left for us, there was nothing left for us. Everything was gone, forcefully removed using the law, using the act, forced removal act. Separation (can’t understand)– they use all those acts to discriminate us. Not even going to the polling station to go and vote, (can’t understand) was left was to fight. I want to tell you, the day I left home, I went with my small bag as if I’m going to school in the morning. I didn’t have even shoes. The uniform that I was wearing, my Grandma used to- we used to have, sometimes we put it in the water, so I can- those colors come out and then make a pant and a shirt. Because we couldn’t afford to buy me a uniform. I was wearing those clothes, jumped in a truck, I left my area.
That is when I went to the place one day you’ll see, you might be going there called (can’t understand). That is when I was- I started to deployed into different units. And I was very angry, just like the other youth. I remember we were more than 300 of us, two gentlemen came in there, they asked ‘what do you want?’ Everyone said, ‘we want guns. We want guns and go and fight.’ And they said to us, ‘there’s no gun for you, you are all going to go back to school and study.’ And then we were not happy with that. Eventually, we were indoctrinated, given proper training, survival, all kind of weapons, and it’s very important to note that some of my comrades mistakenly, they blew themselves up because of not concentrating.
Coming back to the country with a mission, to me it was one of the
most difficult missions. Because you must know that we were told that no one must die, you must just make a statement. I have to assess the building five times a day to make sure that no one must die. That building, it was a preschool for only white children, and I have to think with others, we don’t want these kids to be injured. What are you going to do? And we got information that every Wednesday is what you call sports days, so the schools are going out, the kids are going out. So that was the day we identified as the right day for us. That is why I put the explosive. I personally put the explosive, I put it in a shoebox so as to their mind thinking that it’s a shoebox and not knowing what is inside the box. I set up the explosive, it was in winter, June month is winter in this country. So I set up the pin to happen at three o’clock. Then I left the space. We use telephone, what do you call those coins- where you put the coin. Telephone booth. I say you must evacuate the space; there is an explosive on the second floor, they must not use the lift, they must use the staircase. And with the binoculars, we observed them moving out.
Three o’clock, nothing happened. I started to get worried, but one minute past three, the explosive shook the building. Even where I was standing, it shook the bridge. Personally and other comrades, we went to go and check to see any casualties. And we found no one died, there were only 57 minor injuries, some of them dust, and then so on. And then those who get cuts, are those who rushed to the lifts. Then I report it to Darussalam, the ANC headquarter, the ANC reported to the media, and the media publicized the story. The unfortunate part, what I didn’t know, that amongst us there was a man who turned against us. He became a spy. And he became an informant. That man led to my arrest.
That day of my arrest, it was the first of August. My body was not well, I felt that something’s happening somewhere. But I have to meet because we used to have our meetings station when we come together and do the explaining. And at that day, when I went there, the police were waiting for me. They were in private clothes, called security police. Then I was in trouble. I did try to run, I was not there like this, I was very flat, very thin. I did try to run, I tried to open the space thinking that I would (can’t understand) so that they would open the way for me, I can able to pass through. But it was too late. They started to throw me down on the ground, they kicked me, kicked me- I was just bleeding. They opened the boot of their vehicle, they throw my body in the boot, they close it, they drove me to John Vorster square. Straight up to the third floor. Room number 1023. In that office of theirs, they let me sit on the floor. They interrogate me, asking questions. I initially denied, but I got worried that some of the questions were relevant. And then they take these two legs together like this, they took a chain, they put it around my legs very tight, then these two hands at the back, they put handcuff. Then they open my mouth, they put the handkerchief inside my mouth, then they cover my mouth with the plaster, and then took a wet bag, they covered my head. So I had a difficulty breathing, so that it closed my nostrils. I was kicking like this. Then they opened up my shirt, throw some water on my body, and then while I was feeling that cold, then they start to shock my body using electrical shock. They shocked me- they shocked me up until I did mess up myself. Then they removed the bag, they removed the plaster and the handkerchief, I was so dizzy.
One of the interrogator, he just said to them, ‘make him to eat his mess.’ My pants were pulled down, one of the black policemen called Joe, he then forcefully put my feces in my mouth. I was then- they dragged my body to a shower, opened the cold shower, back to my solitary confinement. I think I fainted because when I gained conscious, they were standing next to me. One interrogator grabbed my shoulder, another one grabbed my legs. Then they lift me up in the air, they throw my body up. When I came down, I was hitting the floor with my back. The one that was grabbing my legs, he never let lose my legs, he made sure that I hit the floor all the time. And I tried to turn, then I got injured my left ribs, and then I was screaming. So when I cough, then there was a blood coming out. And then one of the interrogators went and called in the captain. They said ‘we are going to take you to the doctor, but if you have said to the doctor we have beaten you, we will come back and kill you, and nobody will know how you died.’ I didn’t say anything. They drove me to the doctor, and that doctor did ask me what happened to you. I just kept quiet. And I didn’t even notice that this ear was bleeding. And then after that, in Afrikaans, he just said to them, ‘take it slowly.’
Back again to John Vorster square. I was standing outside, handcuffed, two white men, police, with their two dogs, they were guarding me. I don’t know what you say to your dog, I just remember he let loose the chain and the dog went straight towards me and ripped my pants apart. Again, I screamed, I fell, they picked me up and suddenly I feel something going down my leg and then I say ‘I’m bleeding.’ They took me up to their office, and then one guy came, ‘I want to see how is that dog bitten this terrorist.’ He was looking and then suddenly took the cigarette he was smoking and pushed it in my private parts. It was the dog has severely bitten my penis. And then I screamed again and there were all people asking questions. That time where I feel no pain, I lost time, I lost everything, even when they ask, I just answer what I remember. I just answer what I remember. And one night, I was sleeping in my solitary confinement. When I wake up, the whole floor was wet, everything was wet. I couldn’t sleep, I have to stand the whole night.
So there are so many things like that. Eventually, they took me to the court. That’s where Judge (name), he even sentenced me to 18 years. I remember when he was reading the verdict, he just said, ‘if someone died, in that explosive, I will sentence you to death.’ I was waiting, and I was willing to go to the death row. I was ready, I was ready to die. But they sentenced me to 18 years. Then I said, (can’t understand) date of the release, then I came to Robben Island to be here with other comrades. I felt very secure. We felt very secure because we talked to one another, we do the plannings, we do smugglings, we contact the outside world through smuggling documents. People writing letters to us. I remember I was only writing a letter to my mum, I can’t write a long letter, very few lines, and I was longing for them to come and visit me because I got other inmates that are getting visited by their families.
One morning, (can’t understand), a prison guard, he came to my sanction, and he was having a list. My name was on the list. He said to me, ‘Saturday morning, you’re going to have a visit.’ I ask him who’s that. He said ‘that is your father.’ Well I was very happy, I was very happy and that Saturday morning, when I was walking with other group, passing the office, they called me out of the group, they took me up to the office, there was Sargent (can’t understand) who had just came up to say ‘your visitor is no longer coming’ and your father has been shot eight times, go back to your sanction. He was very mean, I was devastated. I broke the news to my comrades, everybody was very upset. And the people who did that to my family are the same guys who tortured me in that torture chamber. And those guys today, they are wealthy people. They’ve got companies all over the world, all over the country. They never saw anything wrong with that. To them, they were just doing their job. While to us, to me personally, a very painful situation. So on Robben Island, I stayed with that scar in my body of losing an innocent person who never committed any crime. On Robben Island, we keep (can’t understand) on one another.
Any questions?
Student: I mean, after hearing all that, the only thing I can think to ask is how did you- how did you stay like sane? So much- like so many terrible things happened to you while you were in the prison, how did you not like just go insane, or break?
Thulani Mabaso: Thank you very much for the question. I would say I had a very strong leadership. People who were always saying to us, ‘comrades, stay strong. Comrades, you are future leaders, you must lead by example.’ Discipline. I think discipline, that kept me strong. And there are symptoms that I have that I am (can’t understand) to the struggle. You know when you’re in a struggle, there’s two things: you die or you get arrested. That thing was what was in me because I had the conviction that I’m going to fight. I think that kept me strong. And what kept me most strong was that people like comrade Nelson Mandela, comrade (can’t understand), comrade Governor (can’t understand), they were very much supportive. They never said ‘you are alone.’ They always embraced all of us. That kept me going.
And I grew up with church people, my family were church goers. Even in prison, we used to pray, we used to sing, we used to attend church service. And that too, it developed in building the strongness to me and to other comrades. Even today sometimes, this question you ask, everybody’s asking, everyone is asking, ‘how did you manage?’ And sometimes a say to myself, I ask myself (can’t understand), there’re people who’d never survive those things. But I say, what happened to me, I managed to survive. But is that because I always have this conviction in myself? I don’t lose hope, I don’t give up easily. I always make sure that I stay strong, even if I’m weak, I manage to stay strong all the time. I think that’s what kept me sane.
And you must know that even in this jail, we were different organizations. Sometimes there were tensions, very serious tension. And we always make sure that we break the tension, we make sure that we try by all means not to be divided by the system. Even the food we’re eating, we eat the food they give to us according to our race. But we said ‘well, let us promote a unity.’ We shared everything that we have amongst us. Can you imagine, because I’m a black person, Nelson is black, not allowed to eat the bread. The bread. They only allow colored and Indians to eat bread. They were dividing us. But we refused that, we refuse it. We refuse that. We always make sure that we do things together.
Sometimes here, we embark on hunger strike. Refuse to eat. Demanding our rights. My last hunger strike on Robben Island: 14 days, refused to eat. People were collapsing, people were fainting, but we said we are not going to give up. Up until they gave in to our demand. We never stopped struggling, even if we were behind bars. We do everything to get what was right for us. Fortunately, I collapsed. On the 14th day, I think I collapsed or lost conscious, because I remember when I became conscious, I was in hospital surrounded by a prison guard with those big weapons. And when they wanted to give me food, I refused to eat in the hospital. I said ‘no, my comrades are hungry, I’m not going to eat.’ They said ‘no, no, no, no, the hunger strike has stopped, so you can eat.’ But I was not convinced. Up until the doctor told me I have to eat. So I’m saying that those are the things that keep me going too, because I love the unity. I was trained to do that.
And then I had my nickname here. I don’t know if you know that person, they call me Black Bobby (can’t understand). Do you know Bobby (can’t understand)? They call me Black Bobby (can’t understand). Bobby (can’t understand) was one of the hunger strikers that died in the prison. So when there’s a hunger strike, I’m also at the forefront. So you must know, that hunger strike, it too would divide us because there were people who were going to get hungry, we want to get hungry to get what we want to get, they don’t want to get hungry, they want to go (can’t understand) we get our demand, we have to share. We had water here, salt water. Salt water. After two minutes, your skin’s itchy because of that salty stuff. Your hair will look very fake. However, we got information that we must use Colgate shampoo. I didn’t know what that was before, what is this Colgate?
But we prisoners, we used to have what you call a bartering system where we share things amongst us. When I buy cigarettes, buy Colgate, buy matches, and so on and so on. And then Colgate shampoo, it gave us a very good foam, and then it make us to smell much better. And I’m still using it even today. So when one bottle is finished, I must try and get another. Colgate shampoo.
So, we had a lot of things here. We played sports, we played sports here. Soccer is very popular. And I used to be a very good soccer player. We played tennis, played volleyball. Did you see the two black poles? That was a net, put there tennis net, or a volleyball net. So what will happen is the tennis ball- one tennis ball is going to be cut, and then squeeze information inside the ball. So when you play, the racket will hit the ball so hard so that it sent the ball to another section. So someone is ready to collect that ball. So that’s how we were distributing information amongst us. And it’s very important to note that some of our guards were very sadistic. To them, we were terrorists, enemy of the states. But some of them, they did become sympathetic to us. And those who were sympathetic, we’d keep it secret to protect their jobs. And they were very helpful. They’d give us credible information, but they keep on rotating them. So they said, we mustn’t get used to them. But today, some of those former guards are still here.
Even my last former guard is still around. When I got released, I even invited him for a dinner. He was so skeptical to come. However, I’m a very good cooker, he came with his family. I cook him my best meal. We are still very good friends, even today. Because we have learned to live with one another here. We have learned to respect one another. And he has learned a lot of things from us, and we have learned a lot of things from him. But we couldn’t expose him to other prisoners because we don’t know what they’re going to do, what is going to happen. So that is why we keep things secret. I’m so secretive even today.
A question?
Student: You mentioned earlier when you were taken, how- the first time- you mentioned how you were taken to one of the camps, how sometimes you got no food, and you also mentioned in prison how there was lack of food. And you mentioned that you’re a great cook now. How do you think your experience in prison and with little food shaped your relationship with food now?
Thulani Mabaso: Oh yeah, yeah. Good question. Yeah, they are. I eat a lot after, I eat a lot, make no mistake, I eat a lot. Whenever they dish me a plate, don’t dish me a small thing. I remember when I was at USA inauguration in 2009, what they call Union Station, we were dancing there with other families and the (can’t understand) movement. So they give us plates, the food was so little I said to Jesse Jackson, ‘there’s little food here, this food is too little.’ So I love my food. Even now on the boat, I was eating, but it was not enough.
Ward Mailliard: So that connects to a question is how were you shaped by this experience? Obviously, there’s an example, now you really appreciate food right? But how else was your character shaped by that experience?
Thulani Mabaso: Maybe I’ll answer that question properly. It helped me a lot, it shaped me a lot, that with sometimes we (can’t understand) food, we go on hunger strike, and then it helped me to survive because that helped me a lot to make sure that the strength is still there. I can go without food for a few days and then (can’t understand).
Ward Mailliard: Were there other aspects that shaped you when you were here in terms of the experience here that shaped who you are today?
Thulani Mabaso: Yeah, there’s a lot, really. There’s a lot because I was able to, when I was here, able to understand the other person’s view point. Other person’s view point is very important. I was able to understand that, I was able to interact with my opposition, you know? So that too, it helped. It’s still working even now, because you must remember we are still building our democracy, so we still have those engagements. So it helped me. For instance, sometimes I found that in the community meeting, people are ‘blah blah blah blah blah,’ howling and howling. And I have to calm them down to make sure that we must understand what he or she is saying so that we are able to respond. That helped me too, gave me that strength to always- and that’s why I promote opposition. I love opposition, because without opposition, we cannot survive. We have to have opposition so that it keeps even our government on its toes. So if you’re just quiet (can’t understand), you’re not going to lead. We want to have democracy, and without the opposition, there’ll be no democrats in the word. So South Africa, we are in the learning camp of appreciating one another, and of appreciating the opposition. So listen to the other point of views, welcome it, even if you have committed the mistake, welcome the mistake, rectify it, and then move forward. And then move forward. Yep.
Jahnakai Willis: I was going to ask what advice would you give to us, and our younger generation, having been through this whole experience?
Thulani Mabaso: That’s good. Yeah, my advice to younger generation, I always said to them, please go back and study. Keep on studying, keep on doing research, make sure that you always set your goals and work on those goals. And then always remember, we have built the foundation for you, and then you- we have to build a house and make it very strong, build a very strong house, because we have made the foundation. And I always tell them that amongst you all, you are our leaders. And you are very fortunate that there are so many changes that happen in the world and in the country. Take that opportunity with your two hands and utilize it at your disposal. I met a few youth today, it was a June 16th celebration, and we were telling those youth where we come from. I said to them that is why we call it (can’t understand), but you must remember what happened in 1976. We have lost many lives, we have lost youth. But today, we are now on the 25th in our democracy. And we’re still moving forward. It doesn’t matter that we do have mistaken, but we work on our mistakes. The progress is there, (can’t understand).
We just came from the police station, everything was peaceful, people were excited. The point is that the people who are in government, they are listening to the people on the ground. What people want. And with that favor, I want to tell you about a good person, Cyril Ramaphosa. That man, 1993, he started the process of negotiations. They drafted the constitution of our country successfully. Now, he’s the president of South Africa. Now he’s a renowned gentleman. So I was telling our youth that let us use them, keep on making noice, he’s going to listen to us. So even you guys, wherever you are, you must always know that injustices need not to be promoted. Let us promote justice in the world. It cannot just promote itself, it needs your participation. It needs to be there, it needs to be there to say ‘no, this is wrong. Yes, this is right.’ So that is my advice. Stay strong, go study, promote yourself, be selfish to make sure that you become successful.
Ward Mailliard: So, I’d like to hear from you guys, because Thulani’s often speaking to people and giving them his experience, but often there’s not an opportunity for you to hear what they heard, that mattered to them. I would like to hear from some of you about what struck you in what he said to you that had meaning for you that you’re going to take away from here today.
Ksenia Medvedev: Your resilience and ability to let go and not hang on to the horrific things that were done to you really struck me and thank you for sharing.
Student: I was struck by how when you talked about the hardships that you went through here and that you went through them together and you tried to like go against the system by being unified and I think that’s really important because like we need more unity to like accomplish things.
Student: One of the things that struck me was just the brutality of the system. Like when you described being tortured- like we can’t learn that from textbooks or like reading it online somewhere. We can like be told ‘oh, it was really brutal,’ but to hear that first hand just like really hits home.
Student: Just about never giving up and even in prison you’re always fighting for your rights and for what was right. That was really powerful.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah, it’s a powerful thing: you work from where you are, you can’t always be where you want to be, but you have to start from where you are.
Connor Murphy: Yeah, I don’t want to just repeat what everyone else is saying, I’m just struck by the strength. You just kept pushing forward, you knew what was wrong, you like saw that, you understood it, you fought for what you believed in and you just kept fighting and moving forward. That struck me and I really want to take that back. If I could be half as committed as you are, I could change the whole work, it’s amazing.
Ward Mailliard: So I noticed a fair amount of emotion in the room when he was telling some of his story with emotion. What was it that gotcha?
Student: I just- just your vulnerability to share this experience with everybody, for me personally would be such a hard thing. I just- I’m so grateful that you were able to share this with our group and I feel like I just take away so much from what you said and it’s just so powerful, so thank you.
Student: I just want you to know that like you went through what you went through and so many others with you to like be where we are today, so have like the privileges that we have today.
Ward Mailliard: Why does that have so much emotion for you?
Student: I don’t know, because we could still be in a world like that today, and like some of us wouldn’t be together because of discrimination.
Ward Mailliard: Yeah, exactly. So we stand on the shoulders of the people that came before us that had the courage to stand up and do the right thing. That’s pretty powerful. So, you know we think of America as being advanced in some ways, but actually just even if we look at this group of kids, we see people who’ve come from challenging circumstances of one sort or another. And so I think one of the important things of us being able to talk with you is seeing what you did with it so they know what they can do with it. You know one of our people that we study is a bioethicist and he says ‘necessity is the ground of taking your life seriously.’ And somebody who’s been through that knows what that means.
So here’s a question, you know, you guys did this work because it had to be done, you know, and it was the young people, like Soweto which we’re celebrating today, young people went out there and Hector, payed the ultimate price, and many, many, many of them payed the ultimate price. How old were you when you set the bomb?
Thulani Mabaso: I was 15 years old.
Ward Mailliard: Ok kids, did you hear that? 15 years old. So imagine the necessity of making a choice to become a soldier in a war- a choice, you could’ve avoided it. But at 15, most of these kids are 16, 17, 18, right? So somebody- could you imagine as a sophomore, taking that level of responsibility and committing yourself knowing what the consequences might be? Did you know what the consequences – ?
Thulani Mabaso: Yep. I had two things: one was to kill me, second was to take me to jail. I had the conviction that if they take me, I’ll die or go to jail.
Ward Mailliard: You were ready at age 15.
Thulani Mabaso: Yeah, I was ready.
Ward Mailliard: Anybody who hasn’t spoken got anything to say? I’m curious what operates in your minds. I’m looking around, anybody else want to add something in? Because what you think matters, and learning to bring it out of your mouth matters. This is an example of commitment, that’s why I want to give an opportunity for everybody to speak.
Student: You made all these choices so young, and I’m guessing you made them very quickly. Do you regret any of the choices you made?
Thulani Mabaso: No, I don’t regret. I don’t regret it. I have said that we- there was no turning back, we have to fight. There was no turning back. I don’t regret. The most important one I don’t regret: I never killed anyone to any action I did, alright? So I think if something like that happened, I don’t think I’d be still alive as the judge had said. But I don’t regret fighting for our lives, fighting for liberation, no.
Student: When you were going through difficult things in your life, where did you find hope? Did you find it like inside of you, or did you find it in the people around you?
Thulani Mabaso: Yeah, hope- I had hope inside me, and let me be honest with you: the first time I saw Mandela’s picture in the training area, and that made me more strong. Then I remember we used to sing, (singing), you know those songs when we sing, it boosts our moral. We say ‘ah, we’re going to release Mandela, we’re going to release Mandela.’ That keeps you going, you know? That keeps you going. And I’m so glad that we really- they used to call us the young lions. So when the young lions roared, everybody was shaking. So I was very glad, even here. Say these young men, they fought very hard, they suffered daily. I remember in one of the first conference after 30 years in exile, the ANC was allowed to have a conference in South Africa in (can’t understand). So when we were introducing each other to other comrades, you know it was- I said (can’t understand). That keep me moving and going. And meeting those leaders, meeting those people too, it made me feel very proud. And then I look back again and say ‘I have comrades who lost their lives, who didn’t have the opportunity to shake hands to these leaders.’ So let me make sure that we keep that spirit going all the time.